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madrobot
Junior Member



Australia
244 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  07:06:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funk

I double post. I do it for mostly selfish reasons I guess, the community is fractured, I'm not happy about the schism, I want access to the opinions and feedback from people on both forums, so I make fun of it all between contracts and then double post when I'm on a job. There's no point me posting a query or request for feedback or even just general animation discussion on only one forum, I want you, selgin, rudiger, chucky-cheeseburger head and co on the LM forum to see it, but also Synthsin, who wont post there, here only, and he's fast as a shark and has helped me at least as much as just about anyone else apart from maybe Charlie Chukkinhead.

So for me I make the best of a bad situation - mock those who "retire" from the LM forum, thank them later for their sense of humour, and try to get on with business as usual. Mkelley and Wes Synthsin see this forum as a community which they would like to grow. I wish them all the best with that but from my perspective it's really the result of some fallout from Ragnorok on the LM forums, from memory around the time AS6 came out I think.

Anyway there is good feedback advice and help here, and while the AS forum has been a bit slow until recently (or maybe just a lot of new blood making it sound like a higher noise ratio?) more recently there has been some exciting stuff happening there with AS7 stuff with yourself (Funk) Rudiger and others, which is great to see, a direct benefit to me and also heartening for the AS community IMHO.

Apart from that all I would say is that the guys are entitled to their opinions, grandstanding and elaborate fortress building (kidding guys dont ban me) but I think a sense of humour remains essential.

Edit: PS - I looked at the VIP forum - I'm locked out. Probably a sensible decision I guess

Edited by - madrobot on 09/08/2010 07:07:31 AM
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Wena
Gold Member



United Kingdom
1050 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  10:31:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
madrobot nether do I like schisms. But I am hear on this forum because I get answers to problems most of the time. LM has grown to big and getting answers there is a problem.

But on both sides there are those who have their own ideas on how animation should be done and others disagree and by looking at both sides one will learn.

But as in business competition is good it brings the best out from those who are in it.

Just think of Toon Boom and AS the competition has been fears and some of will benefit.

I wouldn't call this group a schism I believe it has and is creating the competitiveness that was necessary in this field.

Wena

Edited by - Wena on 09/08/2010 10:32:12 AM
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Kelleytoons
Forum Admin



6396 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  11:32:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the benefit of those who haven't read all the announcements (and I do understand -- I seldom do that myself on other forums) here's the explanation of why this forum was created over a year ago (and it's still as true as ever today):

http://www.kelleytown.com/forum/animators/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=42

Wes and I didn't WANT to spend money and time creating another forum, but it was made very clear to us we could not participate on the LM forum and say what was on our mind. That's okay -- their forum, their rules, but I can choose to waste my time trying to censor my legitimate complaints and critiques or I can be proactive and do something about it. I chose the latter and whether folks are happy with it is up to them.

Wes doesn't post on the LM forum and I don't even visit it (haven't for nearly 8 months now) so at least when it comes to the two of us if you want our attention you need to post here. But, again, that's your choice, and I don't really have a problem if NO ONE comes here (in that case I'll save some time and money by closing up shop and enjoying animation).

Our hopes were that by having an open forum, where folks were not discouraged in any way of communicating, that it would be a Good Thing for all. And folks, we weren't the only ones who feel this way. There are at least three mods of the LM forum that stopped coming there for the same reasons we stopped coming (and they were MODS of that forum!). So it's not just some perceived "wrong" that Wes and I felt that no one else did. If the LM forum chases away its own mods it's doing something very badly.

The 50 post rule was made by Wes and I in an effort to encourage participation -- because if no one is posting there really isn't a need for us here. There still isn't anything those of you who haven't posted that many times are missing yet, but there might be someday.
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Funksmaname
Silver Member



660 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  4:48:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Funksmaname's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok... I have a better understanding now than I did yesterday - it just caused me some confussion... I see no reason to jump ship from the AS forum, and it's nice to see that I'm not encouraged to do so. I think there was a period of intense battle that I pretty much missed when AS6 first came out, I was away a lot and wasn't going to the forum so maybe this is the reason I don't really understand or know that there was censorship and stuff going on.

If there's one thing that annoys me on any forum its people just going on and on about the same problems and the amount of repetition needed for whinging noobs with only 2 previous posts. This people always exist.

I will keep eyes on this forum, and where a post isn't duplicated I will respond here, i see no reason to double post the same advice and as madrobot said people probably want a wider net of advice. I don't feel i should be making a grand gesture and we'll have to see how this plays out as i think it's a shame and damaging to the community to exclusively post new discovered techniques in only one place - it creates fragmentation in users... and I don't know if people will start getting annoyed if a fantastic technique that is discovered starts being used over 'the other side'? It puts users in an awekward position? Where should we post if not in both places? do we copy and paste our posts from one place to the other - or should we rewrite them so it doesn't feel like spammy behaviour?

I just feel it's a little unclear whether this place is intended as a refuge for all those that jumped ship from the official forums, and if it is that's fine, if it isn't and is a genuine attempt to flourish an additional community I don't know if the 'no public viewing' is healthy for this fourm, and all the double posting might just make newcommers (like me) confused as to what the point really is?

Finally, if every account has to be manually approved and the forum is otherwise invisible to the public, i don't know if the post restriction does much other than create a feeling of hierarchy and seperation amongst members? dunno how others feel but if this place is exclusive as it is, it seems odd to add another level of 'encouragement' to post...

Anyway - I'm glad we can openly discuss all this - i think it's important to nail down why we go anywhere when time is so short :)

Edited by - Funksmaname on 09/08/2010 5:06:12 PM
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F.M.
Starting Member

49 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  6:03:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With someone overseeing the new membership, helps to prevent the flood of spammers that plagues the AS forum.

New geezer with old memories.
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Funksmaname
Silver Member



660 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  6:36:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Funksmaname's Homepage  Reply with Quote
yes, that i understand... but that in combination with no public viewing, and then another level of locking based on post frequency might be overkill?
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Kelleytoons
Forum Admin



6396 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  8:51:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Truthfully, I wasn't all that comfortable about the 50 post rule, but it does make some sense if you want to build a place up. A forum is only as good as the folks who participate on it.

Another things I *should* mention -- Wes and I were the top two active posters on the LM Forum. Even the mods did not have more posts than we did (only Mike Clifton did). And, all modesty aside, I think they were valuable posts, posts with meat on them, helping folks out in every which way we could. So what they did there was chase away two of their most valuable assets (again, all modesty aside). Our choices were to either make that knowledge unavailable to the rest of the AS community, or provide it elsewhere and we chose the latter.

Maybe it would have been better not to bother -- certainly that was the feeling of the mods I spoke of. They left the AS community and no one misses them just like no one misses Wes and I on the LM forum. I happen to think it's much poorer without them, but in general I think it perfectly reflects the decline of the AS community in general (which, for those of you who have NOT been around it for many years, was once a VERY active place, with literally hundreds of posts a day on the forum and new features and participation by Mike all the time).

Now -- I have not taken the time and effort to really build this place. I can't speak for Wes, but my heart has not been in it due to the decline of the AS program. It is no longer a vibrant thing, not evolving but de-evolving and it's hard to get worked up about promoting an older version of the product. IMHO, the watershed of AS was 5.6 -- it is truly magnificent and I still think one of the best things I've ever used on a PC (and I've been working on PCs for nearly 30 years). The wave crested then and has ebbed and now we are witnessing the end.

It's very clear to me that animators in their 30's and younger will not be using the program in less than 5 years (those of us who are older probably have neither the time nor the ability to change horses now). That's not a horrible thing -- nothing lasts forever, and AS will have had a longer run than WordStar, or Paint or a number of other programs equally good for their time. But it's not all that it could have been, and that makes me very sad.
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SynthSin75
Administrator



USA
4483 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  9:01:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit SynthSin75's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There are several discussion areas open for public viewing. We tried to use those hidden from public to encourage joining our community. And the VIP scripting to encourage participation. May seem a bit convoluted, but rest assured there is some method to our madness.

Sometimes I don't like the double-posting, but for Mike and I, we really feel we don't have any other real options. It's this or no one avails themselves of our help (which we're more than happy to give). We encourage participation on both forums. We hide the Innovation section so people at least have to join to get at that stuff, but techniques are not defensible. Anyone who has joined can share those elsewhere, just as long as they aren't sharing other people's work (like AS files and scripts) without their permission. Unscrupulous people may do this anyway, and thus the higher protection of the area we post our scripting work (which can constitute a lot of hours in labor). We vest those hours of scripting work for our community here, not so someone can nab it and repost it on the LM forum. We're trying to keep this forum alive enough so that we (Mike and I) have a 'safe' outlet for our work.

Before Mike suggested opening this forum, my work was going to become completely proprietary.
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Funksmaname
Silver Member



660 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  9:22:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit Funksmaname's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for taking the time to express your feelings - I do understand and sympathise and hope to be a positive contributor here.

The only point I don't really agree with is the nail in the coffin for AS - i dont feel it's that obvious that animators in their 30's and younger will not be using the program in less than 5 years - the truth is that AS still offers the fantastic and unique tools that it had in 5.6, some of which it is STILL the only software capable of! I personally embrace the innovations (i'm 30+, just) - things like physics simulation, when used to simplify the animating process (not just as a 'click on physics and export the animation' type tool) can only be a good thing?? Maybe you just need to let your guard down a little and embrace the changes. I dont really see the 3D stuff being extremely useful for me, but as long as the tried and tested classic tools are removed, i dont see what the problem is with new things being added even if we'd rather something ELSE was added :P as long as the scripters are interested we will always see our workflows improved, if scripting support is removed that WILL be the death of AS, no doubt about it - but I hope that won't happen! :)
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SynthSin75
Administrator



USA
4483 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  10:21:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit SynthSin75's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree that loss of scripting access WOULD be the death of AS, and if I ever get off the AS upgrade roller-coaster, I'll happily script away on whatever version I end up with. But I also agree that AS development can't go on ignoring improvements to its core features forever. If it does (assuming Mike's doom and gloom to be exaggerated), it's competition will overtake it. Toon Boom starting to shift Animate features such as bones down to Studio means that those core features that makes AS stand out from the competition will soon be moot.

I doubt that 'toy' features like physics will save it in the market of professional animators, but it seems AS is narrowing its sights on the purely amateur user.
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Kelleytoons
Forum Admin



6396 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  10:35:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And the other thing I focus on (which is why I give the five years timeline) -- AS will *never* be a 64bit program. In five years that's the only OS you'll have available, so therefore you younger folks are going to go elsewhere.

Now, I'd rather not dwell on the reasons I think this (and I'm not infallible, although I made a pretty good living and a great retirement making those kinds of predictions) because I get accused enough of AS bashing as it is. Let's just say this -- if you ARE a younger animator you had better well get used to using programs like Toon Boom if you want to have any kind of career in the industry. Because 64bit OS aside, it's very clear that Mike's direction is NOT in the professional arena.

Those of you older (or who don't want a career in animation) -- don't worry, be happy and enjoy what you do have (come to think of it, that's good advice for almost anything and anybody. Hey, I'm *happy* to be alive!)
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Funksmaname
Silver Member



660 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  10:58:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Funksmaname's Homepage  Reply with Quote
:) you can always use it in 32bit mode surely? (i dont know i dont have 64bit OS installed, but i'm sure it's possible?)

For me, even as a still illustration program - animation aside - AS offers things illustrator just can't! I think there will always be room for it in the toolkit even if you're unlikely to find a studio exclusively using it (but do any studios use any single program exclusively? again, i dont know but especially with the amount of indy stuff on the increase due to home computing power we are all becoming jack of all trades)

I don't think 'bashing' is necessary, neither do i think 'worshiping' is necessary either but you can't get away from the fact that right now, for certain workflow preferences, there IS no alternative... who knows, it might get a cash injection through unexpected interest and jump leaps and bounds for future versions... who knows what's happening at the base...?
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Kelleytoons
Forum Admin



6396 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  11:20:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, you won't be able to run programs in five years that aren't 64 bit, just like you can't run most DOS programs nowadays. Trust me -- the OS folks salivate for the day when 32 bit programs are no longer supported (and it will happen in your lifetime, if not mine :>).

So most kids won't be able to run it just like most can't run Wordstar nowdays (although there were things it could do, via "scripting" that word processors today still can't do -- remind you of anything?). Now, if you're as old as I am none of this makes any difference (and, as I said, if you don't want a career in animation and are just a hobbyist it doesn't matter either). But if you are young, or want to make a living, you will have to move on and there's no time like the present to get ready. The longer you wait the more catching up you're have to do with your contemporaries (who are NOT waiting :>).

The only reason I bring all this up is that I do know some of you are young enough for this to be important. Then again, if I were 30 years younger I would rule the world (really. No kidding).
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Funksmaname
Silver Member



660 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  11:29:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Funksmaname's Homepage  Reply with Quote
i'm determined to keep this conversation going until i reach 50 posts ;) lol
Seriously though, i take your point... and like you say, i'm a hobbyest that does occasional animation work as part of other things when I can sneak it in there - so it makes no odds to me. I just love the toolset and am quite passionate about it... i've trid toonboom in various forms over the years and found it like trying to eat soup with a fork. I think there's far too much conversation (everywhere) about what is the best tool. It's my firm belief that any tool is only as good as the craftsman that wields it.

p.s. sorry you missed your chance for world domination :)
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Kelleytoons
Forum Admin



6396 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2010 :  08:02:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey, you can keep posting about *anything* -- if there's one thing we don't do here, it's discourage anyone <bg>.

I have felt the same way you did about Toon Boom -- yet I finally bought the latest version (which hasn't come out yet), mostly because the bones they promise look, well, promising. But also for a corollary of the last thing you said -- if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

A good craftsman doesn't use just one tool, but whatever he or she needs to get the job done. And the more tools (and the better the tools) the easier the work becomes. So it's silly to think that ALL you need is AS -- to do a quality animation you might need half a dozen various tools. I mean, let's face it, you can accomplish almost ANYTHING in Photoshop alone, but trying to use it for an animated movie would be insane. You use whatever makes the work go easier, and that in turn makes you a better craftsman because you then do things you might not have even tried due to the complexity of the task.

(And I would have been a very good world leader. Benevolent dictatorship, which is ALWAYS the best form of rule. The real problem, of course, is finding someone benevolent enough).
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